This is our second in our series of interviews we conducted in Cairo recently. We had the pleasure of catching blogger Wael Khalil on May 30th between tweets and blogging the post-revolution phase. Wael discussed the opportunities and concerns that many Egyptians have as the post-revolution period unfolds.
Wael Khalil is an activist and a blogger. He has been active in the Palestinian Solidarity, Anti-War, and Democracy movements that pervaded the Egyptian scene in the decade that preceded the revolution. He is a software engineer by education and profession. Wael maintains a popular blog at waelk.net and you can find his resourceful tweets at @wael
The interview was conducted in Arabic, and was translated by Mohamed Aly and edited by Jadaliyya Co-Editor Hesham Sallam. You may find the translation below the video.
Opportunities and Challenges Facing the Egyptian Revolution: Interview with Blogger Wael Khalil from Jadaliyya on Vimeo.
Interview Transcript
Bassam: Good Evening Wael, thank you for doing this interview with us. I would like to ask you about the threats and opportunities facing the Egyptian revolution and where we stand right now?
Wael: I think we are going through a period of extreme confusion, great fears, many currents, and plenty of proclamations. Today Egypt is an open society and all the people are raising their voices demanding or expressing something and there is a lot of uproar and outcry. But I think there are certain important features that define my conception of the Egyptian revolution, and this is my own perception and does not represent that of any movement/group. Why? Because the Egyptian revolution—as I see it and I am always optimistic—is moving in the right direction and it will be able to solve all contradictions and problems that it faces right now.
As a start, the problem of the Egyptian revolution is that it is leaderless. And this also happens to be an amazing advantage. This spared us from making any concessions [to the regime], which may have resulted from miscalculations or weakness of leaders. When we were in Tahrir (liberation) Square, I was certain that we would achieve the best outcomes because no one would be able to squander the harmony and consensus [in the Square]. Everyone has the right to speak and to say whatever [he or she] desires. And in the end the right idea prevails. I believe this condition still exists.
The Egyptian people are the owners of this revolution and in reality they lead it. There are various forces [that participated in the revolution], liberals and leftists, but the size of their organizations remain small in comparison with the mass population that took part in the revolution. This is true even for the better-organized forces such as the Muslim Brotherhood. Due to my confidence in the revolutionary agility of the Egyptian people, I think the chances [of success] are very good. And the revolution will likely move beyond merely overthrowing Mubarak and the symbols of his regime, to end the pharaonic character of the Egyptian state that had continued to exist for thousands of years. Egypt will no longer be ruled by a pharaoh. No longer will there be a ruler worshiped like God, who [is seen as] faultless, or who will stay in power until he dies. Today, our [deposed] leader is in prison and just 4 months ago he was in power. This is a very good achievement in such a short period of time. This [achievement] was not the outcome of visionary political forces or an intelligent and outspoken leader. Rather, it was the determination of the [Egyptian] street from January 25th and until last Friday. It was the street that achieved what the revolution has accomplished, including deposing Mubarak, toppling his successive government, and storming and dismantling his state security apparatus. All these achievements were attained through consensus in the sense that all the forces that opposed these goals were weak, bewildered, or confused. Up to now there were no equal [opposing] forces in the battle. Matters will not be that simple in the upcoming battles. For the revolution to move from merely overthrowing Mubarak to real change in the state’s structure and real change in the distribution of wealth, one of the important issues that helped in the success of the revolution and was one of its slogans is “social justice”. We were in the Square and all the people including Muslim Brotherhood and liberals were asking and demanding social justice and human dignity.
[5:00] So far, social justice remains a slogan and in order for it to be transformed into policies we need to take sides. We need platforms that take the side of the class that represents the majority of the Egyptian people which is the class of the oppressed and exploited, whether traditional factory workers and the working class that lives on wages only. What we mean when we say that these classes have not been yet reached by the revolution is that these classes have not seen any of the fruits of the revolution. In reality, this will not be achieved only through having [millions of people in the public squares] or by the formation of unions, which are widely being organized. In my view this will take place in the coming elections. That is why I am one of those who are calling for not postponing the up-coming elections and not to adjourn the people’s entry into the political process to make their choices from among the various platforms. I believe that these platforms will be clear and partial without any confusion for people’s demands and interests, because we will speak about real progressive taxation and about restraining the unruly Egyptian capitalism, which used to do as it pleases in the country. It is useless to have a revolution in the country and then leave everything as is. It is useless for someone to try to oppose us without popular legitimacy. We have legitimacy in the street and we need to transform it into power; one that will be able to make decisions and to take the side of one class over another, and this will not be achieved without elections.
There are many fears surrounding these elections and one of them is the level of readiness by the current political forces to enter the elections. In particular, the claim that the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic forces are organizationally better equipped to enter and win these elections. In my estimate this is incorrect reading of reality. [In reality,] no one is ready. The field or game in which the Muslim Brotherhood used to take a part is totally different from what is coming up. The Brotherhood used to play the game of the good against the bad or corrupt regime—and there was no disagreement on how corrupt that regime was. So voting for a candidate from the Brotherhood was meant as an expression of anger, opposition, and rejection of the crooked government. This game has completely changed because we are entering elections in which people will see clearly where their interests lie and how they can be realized. Today the principle demands of social justice in health care, education, and minimum wages are being raised and a lot of people are talking about them. Some of the forces talk about the demands for social justice in a very general way and on the basis of combining market economy with social justice. Other forces will rise and talk in more explicit way about the distribution of the society’s wealth by making the point that instead of going into the hands of the few, the country’s wealth should go to the laboring majority. We have to be confident that when platforms are introduced people will vote for their interests. They will know where their interests are. It will make no difference to them who is talking about [their interests], whether Islamists or leftists. It is the content/substance of these platforms that will decide the outcome of the upcoming elections.
The elections will not resolve the problem. In my assessment, the next government or authority must remain subject to pressures from below. The situation in which we live now is that there is a military council that is not elected and bureaucratized. Its existence in the position of power is accidental since no force was able to take over the government. But this council did not take any decision or step without great pressure from below and this pressure will continue after the elections.
[10:00] We do not anticipate that all the demands of the social forces will be met in the elections. The forces which will form the next parliament will also face pressures from above; from the IMF, international capitalism, and the local bourgeoisie to withdraw their programs or to reduce the level of change they intended to implement.
The democratic practice in my assessment involves a pairing between the ballot box and the rebellious street. On the one hand, the defiant street can not continue without achieving power. Once elected on the basis of clear contract and platform, this power will achieve its demands for progressive taxation, public spending on education, health, and employment. On the other hand, the traditional form of representative democracy where I give my vote once every 4 years is no longer useful. I think we are able and for many years to come to practice this alternative two-fold form of democracy, which I believe is new, positive, and good democracy. We began to see in many countries that there is a problem with representative democracy. There are not enough distinctions between the right, liberal, and leftist parties. All come out in defense of the market, market-economy, and freedom of the market, etc….
I believe that in Egypt and as a result of the long years of Mubarak’s rule, policies of neo-liberalism and the pressures from below, the people who made the revolution are in reality still waiting for it to materialize in their pockets, to reach them in the education of their children, and in healthcare for their families. The people, in my assessment, will not allow for any one to deprive them from this right which signifies the real realization of the revolution by those who deserve it, who made and supported it, and who will defend it. These are the opportunities.
Because of these conditions, I see the risks of having the elections carried out sooner rather than later—despite their seriousness—as less threatening in comparison to the attempt to [continue to] hide the differences in class alliances. We as the left or social force will be dragged into false confrontation between the secular and Islamic forces or between the secular and religious state. I believe this is not next battle in Egypt. The question of the secularity of the Egyptian state is settled and anyone who brings the example of Iran or any other place is incorrect. The secular character of the Egyptian state cannot be abdicated by anyone whether a person in the street or a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Of course there are some desire and worries about the identity of the Egyptian state. But the real battle, as I mentioned in one of my writings, is the recent calls for the formation of a secular coalition between the liberal and leftist forces. This will lead to the concealment of the differences between these forces and thus the issues which are of real concern to the people will not be dealt with in a serious fashion. In this way, the lines of the battle are being removed to high level of abstraction; the secular (a term that has a poor reputation) in confrontation with the Islamist. When this happens, the people will be unable to see their problems or who really speaks to their interests. This will be one of the risks if the revolution is allowed to dissipate or if victory is fulfilled for the non-secular forces. The second risk which we are witnessing a part of it now is the skeptic attitude towards the whole democratic process. Now there are some forces that demand the postponement of the elections since in their view the religious and wealthy forces will dominate these elections and the people will not know what to choose, and hence in their view the elections will not be representative of the Egyptian society. This is being repeated by the liberals and by some from the elitist youth who argue that the people will not be able either to choose or to confront these forces, and therefore the entry of the people into the political process must be delayed under the pretext of its un-readiness.
The real risk is to tell the people that they are not ready for participating in the political process. Today, the liberal forces are questioning the abilities of the people who made the revolution, which we did not anticipate, possible.
[15:00] If they succeed in making us doubt the democratic process and the value of the people making their own choices, then the outcomes of the revolution are no better. But I have great confidence that this will not happen. I am optimistic because the opportunities offered by the elections are larger than those risks, because the next elections will express to a large degree the people’s choices, because the traditional forces will not be able to achieve any success since the field is now completely different than before, and the people who made the revolution will not let it slip easily out of their hands.
Bassam: So you see the next stage as not necessarily decisive but as a part of long processes?
Wael: For sure, for sure. We always used to read in books about the permanent revolution but we see it happening in Egypt today. At every stage even before the fall of Mubarak there were those who would say let us stop here, and those who would say let the revolution continue. This will go on between the liberal forces who only talk about political freedoms and elections’ cards. They thank the people and ask them to go home with their LE 300, to their wrecked dwellings and broken education. But there are those who say no. The revolution will not stop until it really realizes all of its goals, that is, the restructuring of society for the benefit of the wide majority of the people.
In my view these stages will continue for a long time. What forms they will take after the elections will be decided by various factors which now can not be imagined and we should not at this moment occupy ourselves with these developments. Organizations such as unions or popular committees which are being formed now and the possibilities for their development will depend on how they perform in the next stage and their roles in realizing the goals of the revolution for the sake of those who deserve it.
Bassam: Thank you. Perhaps in few months or maybe less we can try to interview you again to see what your thoughts are and whether they will change.
Wael: For sure, I think we are all learning …All of us from January 25th until today have just been observing. Sometimes we were happy for what was happening but most of the time we were just amazed by the abilities of the ordinary people. We used to read in the books about the aptitudes of the common people to realize, make their own choices, and to take the most appropriate position since we did not have the chance to put the matter into voting. But there are paths the majority of the people will choose with high level of efficiency and there is no reason to believe that they will stop today. We can put our confidence in the people because as we say in Egypt they gave us a sign … they gave us very great sign. They showed us in the past 4 months something that no one, especially among those who are involved in politics, would have imagined; something, which we all dreamt of, something we talked about, something we believed in (in a dogmatic way), but something we did not know how to achieve. We were amazed by how people changed everything, while even bringing their children along.